Curse

Ghull Ka · Jun 19, 2006, 09:20 PM // 21:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by myword

so to make the Faction system actually rewarding to the alliance that holds it, they should not ferry. Since Elite missions are the biggest perks to holding HzH/Cavalon... yet when they don't ferry they are flamed.

So basically, the alliances that hold HzH/Cavalon are slaves to the public. They faction farm the majority of their time on GW just to hold the town and are pressured into giving away their only viable reward. Obviously members in the alliances are starting to grow disgruntled with it, how long can they be fooled or can fool themselves?

Sure, at first it feels good like to be the nice guy ferrying people (omg! people actually like me online!!) and getting the occassional tip, but i'm sure i'm not the only guy who's hiding a grin and thinking 'you're getting played' to the guy ferrying me.

This post got it right. Lots of other posts like it here, too.

Back when the BlackBlades were battling The Crusaders was a good time. When the BlackBlades controlled Cavalon, everyone called them jerks for not sharing what they earned with people who didn't earn it. Huh?? Is smoking crack legal these days?

People now must share what is the ONLY tangible reward for faction farming. If you don't, you're a jerk. The masses fully expect taxis to the elite missions as if the game manual says that they should be able to get a taxi anytime they like.

Every single person out there that ever criticized the BlackBlades for not sharing access to The Deep, I say to you: Why aren't you sharing the gold in your storage box with me? I mean, it's something you worked hard to farm, a reward that you've earned. Why do you insist on being such a jerk and not sharing it with me? WTF?

I have only donated enough faction to my guild to declare allegiance with the Kurzicks and never a scrap more. There's no point, no return, no tangible ingame reward for doing so, and for an 8 person guild, there never will be with the current implementations. But by Grenth, if my alliance ever worked hard enough to own House Zu Heltzer, I would push as hard as I could to not ferry ANYONE into Urgoz's Warden. It's OUR reward, not YOURS. We worked for it and you did not.

Hopefully, their fix for opening the elite missions up to everyone will be that your alliance has to have X faction in order for you to be in a party that enters the mission instance. Much like you can't enter UW if you're not ascended, you won't be able to enter the Deep/Urgoz if your alliance doesn't have at least 10,000 faction. That way your alliance members can donate from time to time so that everyone in the alliance can get in, and you can get a benefit from donating, but you don't have to powerfarm.

(and don't get me started on "the pointless red/blue battle line that does absolutely nothing")

Levi Garett · Jun 19, 2006, 09:23 PM // 21:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by myword

so... blame should be put on the alliance that started the trend of ferrying and the Scribe for subsequently heralding them as examples then?

majority of the playerbase now expects free ferries, as if it was their right, and alliances that hold the town are pressured into ferrying for free, if not they are labelled jerks and insert every negative thing here.

Yep XoO was labled jerks for not ferrying. Of course we lost motivation once free ferrying was offered to the Deep since elite mission drops were no longer "elite" or rare. Since Ugroz drops are the same as the Deep (besides the end boss ones) then holding HvH really lost it's appeal for many in the XoO alliance.

The bottom line is Anet is not to blame for a fugged up faction system. It's really the ferrying that has destroyed the reasons to FF, and honestly it's probablly for the best considering all of the moaning and groaning that went on here (and on other fan sites) about access to the elite missions.

I'd rather have the current state destroyed economy for "elite" items than read all the whining about elite missions (which honestly was very overrated).

Levi Garett · Jun 19, 2006, 09:31 PM // 21:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghull Ka

Hopefully, their fix for opening the elite missions up to everyone will be that your alliance has to have X faction in order for you to be in a party that enters the mission instance. Much like you can't enter UW if you're not ascended, you won't be able to enter the Deep/Urgoz if your alliance doesn't have at least 10,000 faction. That way your alliance members can donate from time to time so that everyone in the alliance can get in, and you can get a benefit from donating, but you don't have to powerfarm.

Actually I'm hoping that you cannot "enter mission" unless you are a member of the holding alliance. This would get rid of all the people that are parked there that are only staying just incase ferrying is stoppped. If the alternate entry method is in fact implemented then there will have to be some type of exception for these parties that worked to get in. Hopefully the work that is required for the alternate method is not something stuipid-easy.

It really doesn't matter at this point though as the market is flooded with too many Zodiac/Elite items already. Since a very small percentage of people actually customize their weapons then it's safe to say the same items will float around for some time. Even if both holding parties stop ferrying from today on the market is screwed.

Again no problems for me. I'll re-buy the same statted Zodiac Sword I sold for 1.5mil for ~100k here in another month or two. :P

Shantel Span · Jun 19, 2006, 09:47 PM // 21:47

This is sad.

I work my butt off to help the common player get to attempt the Elite missions, and now the consensus of people agree that they DON'T want the Deep? That they WANT it to be exclusive.

Clarify. Please. Want me to keep farming for you?

Cador · Jun 19, 2006, 09:51 PM // 21:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Great Al

Well, if Anet decides to give an exclusive area to the controlling alliance, that won't be fair to the people who aren't in a large guild. Howbout maybe the people in a controlling alliance have like, +30 health and +5 energy, or something like that?

What I think is that the 20% discount that the alliance gets should be the base price that the merch gets and whenever someone buys a key or an item in that town/outpost, the alliance gets that extra 20%

this way they make 40% if u think about it

MSecorsky · Jun 19, 2006, 10:10 PM // 22:10

HAH! Brilliant flash! Thank me later.

Reward: Zodiac armor. Available at 1.5K per piece at the end of the Elite missions (with a Xunlai storage available) only to you if your alliance owned either...

Cavalon/zu Heltzer (depends where you are) or possibly your alliance holds any town at the start of the mission (in case it changes hands while you're in there).

Caveat - you can only buy one piece per visit.

Whatcha think?

TheOneMephisto · Jun 19, 2006, 10:17 PM // 22:17

I'm thinking that the alliance should get a percentage of money from every product bought and sold in their city (merchants definetlyand possibly traders). This would provide a tangible reward, butloads of cash. Money would be split evenly between all the members or would be put in guild storages (if they ever implement those).

Branskins · Jun 19, 2006, 10:35 PM // 22:35

My alliance has slowly stopped doanting faction because it is kind of pointless right now. I am just donating my faction to get my title of 250,000 donated.

I think the system was a good idea but fell through because it was way too shallow. For example, you could have 150,000 Kurzick faction total but have 0 on you at the moment and have 5000 Luxon faction and the Kurzick will not talk to you. The system seems kind of non-rewarding because the npcs do not understand your time has been more devoted to them.

The rewards are also pointless. You spend your faction on amber and jade to find it can be bought at the merchant for 1,000. Wasted time getting faction? I think so. And once you get your armor there is no point for the rewards anymore.

I am a little dissapointed in the faction system. I thought there would be a ton of rewards like cool weapons, or special appearance stuff, but what we got was just material that ends up at the merchants anyways. Town control is also kind of pointless, sure there is a discount but when you farm faction and have so much I doubt the discount even matters. Fireworks last less than 20 seconds and most people do not even care. Also what happened to the parades they talked about so much?

I hope the whole faction system stays for future games, but I want to see a lot more depth added to it. I want to see quests that you can get once you have a certain amount of total faction, I want to see rankings (like WoW) and I want to see all the fun stuff that comes with acquiring all of this faction. Nice try with the faction system, it was a really great step in the right direction and I hope to see more improvements to it.

Batou of Nine · Jun 20, 2006, 04:13 AM // 04:13

Wow...

I didnt realize this would generate so much response. I guess when i did a search for a thread on this topic and came up empty, that shoulda been my first clue. After reading lots of both supporting posts/replies and posts in argument i have a few more things to say....

First off. To say that my argument is contradictory is silly. I didnt mention the economy ONCE, nor is my argument about the economy in any way, shape or form. I talked solely about the point and purpose of the current Faction System and concluded that there was none!! It is true that because of free access being given to the elite missions, the market has a LOT more high end items up for grabs then if controlling alliances had kept it within their own ranks. HOWEVER! With the points/arguments i had brought up in OP you should clue in on WHY it is kept open. For an alliance to control and MAINTAIN control of an elite mission, they must FF constantly. That means hardly, if at all, time to actually run the elite missions themselves.

When previous alliances kept people out of the elites, EVERYONE complained. When Alliances started charging entrance fees, EVERYONE complained. Now that they held open almost always, EVERYONE STILL complains!?! So my point? What the CRAP reward is their for the alliances hard work? If they dont maintain, they wont have unlimited access, but if they go in mission and slow down their FF efforts, they will be overthrown by another alliance, so instead they have to constantly FF. Catch 22.

Ok, so if the controlling alliance kept the elite within their own ranks, they get sole and unlimited access. So you telling me i worked hours and hours on end to get into a mission that takes serveral MORE hours where you have like a 10% chance of getting anything worthwhile?

I am glad that so many can see the obvious lack of success in the faction system, because truelly, as it stands, there is absolutely no point to it. I compare it to this: "I worked for 8 hours today, boy im tired, but the pay off should be great! Oh, only 5 cents for the whole day? @#$!%"

/rant again?
enjoy.

Thanks to all who offered additional supporting points, and even those who offered arguments. I hope that Anet realizes that it needs QUITE a big overhaul.

J snukka · Jun 20, 2006, 04:30 AM // 04:30

when I read this I laughed my a$$ off. WOW finally someone is realizing that it is pointless to attempt to hold a damn town with all that stupid faction crap. I thought it was dumb the first time I saw a guild own a town and I saw 2 million on the tab. I think everyone should have thought the same when all the guilds were with no lives were ranking up high millions just to own a town.

thazel · Jun 20, 2006, 04:44 AM // 04:44

I kinda agree, the alliance that holds Cavalon or HzH gets NOTHING, zero, zilch, nada. Fireworks and a merchant gee wow, although I agree The Deep and Urgoz's warren should be more freely availible, the alliances holding the Capitals gain clsoe to no reward for it, except for pride and a couple of NPC's.

Although I agree, the elite missions should be availible to SOME players, the alliances should have some sort of exclusive advantage, say a merchant that sells keys to open chests with exclusive items in the elite missions, this merchant would only be availible to the alliance holding the elite mission town.

OR completely disable the ability to taxi people, but then again everyone will complain and say the alliance are jerks blah blah blah.

Frankly I dont even see the point of holding Cavalon anymore---theres no reward.

OR maybe add a new mission where it is impossible for non-alliance members to enter it that gives exclusive drops, has a boss equivalent to kanaxai or urgoz that drops greens. But then if this happens there will be anotehr thread saying ZOMG THAT PLACE IS TOO EXCLUSIVE.

-sigh-

Echo Flanger · Jun 20, 2006, 05:02 AM // 05:02

I was in Clan Ars Alaris, which is part of the alliance of Clan Dethryche (dtr).

dtr's alliance is currently sitting at 7.4 million i believe, probably more now since its been a few hours, in second place on luxon side, and slowly creeping up on Keys for control of cavalon. What did i hear when I was in Ars, in alliance chat?

AB
Who wants to AB
Lets go FF
FF were almost at Cavalon
Lets AB

And who gets screwed? I think 2-3 clans have got the boot from the alliance for having the lowest faction, in like 2 days. Drow and BC. Regardless of which players are helpful, nice, fun to play with... They literally just DROPPED [BC] today and picked up some other clan with higher faction. Without saying a word. This is what it takes to get a crappy little bonus of ferrying, which now apparently is a catch-22 because you can't even get your rewards for your labour due to flames?

Crap. Total craaaap. Personally i got the boot from Ars because i swore in alliance chat or something along the lines of that, but it doesn't really bug me, because i just don't have the time to play 8 hours a day and rack up the faction needed to keep a town in an online game which has zero benefit to me in any aspect of my life. Sure it's fun to have and people in game are gonna know you... But it's not something i'd go bragging about to friends. I'd rather spend my time playing a few hours a day for fun, a few AB's for fun, rather than 100% of the time having to FF for an alliance to hold some silly city.

jackie · Jun 20, 2006, 05:09 AM // 05:09

One big problem would be solved if Elite Missions wouldn't be in the middle of all this city control reward system.

They are the ONLY high-level dungeons that will give some truly challenging (of course in couple months everybody has learned the areas inside out and can solo them ^_^ ) PvE experience in Factions and I bet 99% of us wants to go there every now and then, so removing those two from city control and make them accessible to all like FoW & UW would stop so many issues that ppl have.

Instead, the rewards from controlling a city should be more like something cosmetic that will not restrict players from getting to fun & challenging areas ( though thx to the wonderful taxi system we all can access to the exclusive areas

), but something that would still be very very wanted, i.e exlusive tattoo artist, unique pets, different cape art, weapon crafter (for example one that needs rubies & sapphires), possibility to change hairstyle, maybe even exlusive armor crafter, etc. etc. Anything that will give recognition to the controlling alliances.

And what comes to the Faction Farming: Yeah, it's an endless grind & many alliances/guilds have burned out because grinding 24/7 is somewhat inhuman and many alliances kick guilds out without a word to bring some bigger guild inside. Instead of grinding the FF with repeatable quests, city control should be more aligned with the AB & the big line that lays in the middle of Cantha. Making ppl fight over the cities would make everything more interesting.

Instead of alliance chat spamming about "FF group forming 4/8", there would be messages like "We are preparing a group to invade some border outpost of HzH, monks needed" etc...

This kind of change might be too big to impement now after the release, but I actually thought before Factions came that controlling cities would be something like that.

markus_thom · Jun 20, 2006, 07:54 AM // 07:54

If they do plan to add a extra way into getting into the deep maybe it could be only available after completing a series of new quests which are hard and maybe lead into explaining the elite mission itself, because the whole fow system where u pay money was done once I dont wanto see that system again its annoying, and many scams and problems took place because of it.

Regardless all these people calling for a so called taxi.
Why do they state it like this if "free taxi"

I think a more beffiting role would be, "hitchiker to deep"

Regardless I shame on people that just give free rides to anybody, so I didnt mind when some allainces kept the elite to themself, because they are bassicaly wasting there time giving lifts to unworthy, unpreciative and people who just use.

myword · Jun 20, 2006, 09:11 AM // 09:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shantel Span

This is sad.

I work my butt off to help the common player get to attempt the Elite missions, and now the consensus of people agree that they DON'T want the Deep? That they WANT it to be exclusive.

Clarify. Please. Want me to keep farming for you?

if it's fun for you, go ahead.

Hunter Sharparrow · Jun 20, 2006, 10:16 AM // 10:16

Good to see that people are beginning to see what some of us have already saw and discussed about when factions was first released. The whole thing is a crappy design.

In the one hand your reward was sole ownership of the missions but the general public wouldn't stand for that for good reason. First, it took FF to get the faction which is time over skill not skill over time. Something that goes against anet's claims that the game is all about player skill and that the average player will be able to be competitive with the player that plays for hours on end. Second, the only thing that should be holding a person back from any content of the game should be that individual's skill at the game or at the very least that alliance/guild's skill.

In the other hand by ferrying people you take the only decent reward away from yourselves. A reward for what though? For faction farming? Time not skill.

The system rewards farming. Some of us saw this from the beginning but people were all wound up about being able to own a town that they were too pig headed to see what some of us already saw. Good to see people realizing the shittiness of the situation. The alternative access will further remove ownership of the town as a reward. Perhaps for the better.

Former Ruling · Jun 20, 2006, 12:29 PM // 12:29

The Elite mission thing went out of hand lol. Now the alliance that owns has little control over who is accessing the missions anyway. (Like the XoO guy said, I'm sure there are people that keep a character there and ferry their guild in through the Guild hall even after another alliance takes over)

So even if the alliance controlling stopped ferrying, it probably wouldn't put an end to others being at the mission.

Karlos · Jun 20, 2006, 12:51 PM // 12:51

Hmm, I came to check out this thread at the request of Batou. Interesting thoughts...

I am friend/former guildie/former Alliance member with Batou. My guild is still in the oOo alliance and so I guess we're not sick of it yet.

I agree on the basic premise that the individual reward ultimately provided is very pale in contrast with the work put in. In fact, it pales in comparison with other already pale rewards.

For example, to get a puppy (Rank 6 in HoH), you need to grind for weeks. but at the end of the day, you can always "flash" your puppy at people. Show them you did it. But if you hold HzH or Cavalon for 12 years, you have nothing to show for it. Not only that, but you wasted valuable hours that you could have spent doing things that are more fun (or more rewarding in GW gold).

So, really, after a few weeks, the glitter of "Yeah! We own da houze, baby!" fades away, and you are left with the stark reality that this is actually not paying any dividends.

Now, I think the mistake in this whole approach is that people think Alliances owning towns was supposed to be extremely rewarding. I never believed ANet would do that, I still don't believe they will.

If we examine HoH, we will see that while there is the promise of high-quality gold drops and celestial sigils (not very different from the promise of Urgoz's Longbow and a Zodiac Axe), there is little left after the fact. There is really little reward (gold wise, even fame wise) as compared to farming (gold or fame). The actual reward is for those witha competitive spirit to win HoH and establish themsleves as a force there.

After a while, they get sick of kicking butt in HoH and move on to GvG.

So, I don't think ANet designed this any differently. At first, small guilds will start farming faction to see if they can do it. Then they will get together with a few other guilds to see how this alliance business works. Then they control Durheim Archives, Woot! (Kinda like winning your first battle in HA.)

They move on and on through the towns until they take over HzH. This inspires fierce competition (from those they overthrew, and those inspired by their victory to try and do the same). They fight the competition. Beat it. Feel proud.

After a while, it all gets old, and they move to something else.

Now, here are the positives I find in it:

It is a beautiful collaborative project. Guilds that never had anything to do with each other must work together, organize, grind, encourage one another, learn politics and diplomacy. Even put up with annoying Alliance Chat diatribes .
It makes people fully explore all the FF possibilities to poptimize the faction per minute output of their activities. I really like how they mad eABs and Competitive Missions more worth it in terms of faction. This is better than introducing lame Totem Axes in Mourning Veil Falls hoping that will induce people to get to Amatz Basin.
It featured a lot of drama. Guilds backstabbing the alliance, alliances bribing guilds on each side. Just insane stuff. A level of human interaction I have NEVER encountered in the game before.

But in terms of "individual rewards" it has little to offer, but then again (as I mentioned above), a win in HoH has very little to offer in that regard.

Note: I just need to comment on one thing. People who say donating faction into the alliance is a waste of gold are just very poor mathematicians. If everyone did that, Amber would be like 200 gold at trader and farming for 1 hour to make 10k faction to cash it in for 2k (or even 5k) is a waste of time. You're much better off farming UW in a 2-man run. You can do 2 runs in an hour, make 10k in cash and drops AND end up with a few ectos.

Lyphen · Jun 20, 2006, 12:55 PM // 12:55

I really think they just need to close the Elite missions to only people who are in the alliance. It'd give a good reason to own the city, and would increase the rarity of Zodiac items.

Free Ferries pretty much killed Faction.

Lady Lozza · Jun 20, 2006, 12:58 PM // 12:58

Where to start on this topic...

I've said a number of times during the in the TC/BB that I didn't think that opening the elite missions to everyone was a good idea. Judging by the conversation I had with another player the other day, it seems I was right. Why? Well a LOT of players seem to think that because Anet has said they are investigating alternative methods of access that it is their godgiven right to have a ferry to the elite mission in HzH/Cavalon RFN, thank you very much. In fact the number of players who sit around and complain about the taxi service sickens me.

The community was divided during the TC/BB conflict. Some pro-open, some anti, and both points of view were valid. Despite the flames, and the general bad behaviour that went on, it offered us something that we don't get too often, conflict and competition that we could take an interest in, that we had a stake in. It was exciting. BB however, stopped competing, most alliances opened up the elite for free, and anyone with any ideas to the contrary wondered wth the point was if they were going to be constantly flamed and abused for the decision their alliance had EVERY RIGHT to make.

So what was the point anymore? There wasn't one. Zodiac skins, while they sold well at first, players eventually decided that, for the most part, they didn't particularly like the skin. They stopped being worth the $$$ because, not only did people not necessarily like the skin, but players realised they were no more leet or uber than any other perfectly modded collector's item. In fact if you look at the trends, GW players are becoming more savvy. The time that it takes for skins/greens/rares to decrease in value is phenomenal. I personally don't see this as a bad thing, however it is just another in a long list that makes the thought of ff your butt off that much LESS attractive.

We all grumbled and complained that grind was involved if we wanted to own a town, but how else was there to do it - keeping in mind that it is a points related system? There is no other way that the current system, or idea behind the system, could have been implemented without creating grind. Grind isn't always desirable, but let's face it, 90% of the community was going to complain there was too much grind anyway. Take HoH for example. People complain that there is too much grind there. FoTM wins out always, apparently. It isn't based on skill, no, skill, team work, and clever builds apparently has NOTHING to do with it.

You can't please everyone. The players are always going to be complaining about the grind. However with the limited rewards available it makes those who are happy to grind for their alliance wonder whether it is worth it. Anet's system isn't flawed. The flaws lie in thinking that the community would be able to play by Anet's rules. The community complains, Anet capitulate, and all of the the sudden there is absolutely no desire, no incentive to play by the rules.

So what were the rules: Form big, diverse alliances, where everyone could do as they pleased to forward the alliance's standing.
Players' reponse: ZOMG my 10 player guild can't possibly compete against that 1000 player alliance - open the elite missions up!

*blink*
Well, that sure was fun folks, gg, ciao. No decent system of rewards = no incentives to play by the rules = poor community spirit = players believing they have the right to everything they want, without the least bit of work.

Grind is NOT necessary in GW. It isn't necessary to get perfect mods/weapons, to get good looking armour, or even to play a decent pvp match. Nonetheless players complain about the grind anyway. Anet wants to reward those who grind. And why not? By grinding and enjoying the game, those happy players with their special (but BALANCED) equipment are Anet's best form of promotion. Anet want to stop ebayers because it isn't fair to those who actually EARNED their special (but BALANCED) equipment. On the other hand, Anet also wants casual players to feel as though they get "something" out of the game. Casual players CAN get greens, CAN make perfect weapons, CAN get 15k fairly easily, without encroaching on the perfect rare skined golds and FoW armour of the grinders.

Personally I don't see anything wrong with the current system BUT the lack of rewards. Lack of rewards make loyal players and loyal grinders less likely to want to keep playing.

As for grind, let's face it, if YOU don't want to play by the rules (form an alliance with at least SOME people who are happy to grind), you don't have to play at all.

As for me? I was hoping at the beginning of all of this we might actually get some sieges. Having siege battles for control of towns would be lovely.

As for Anet, well let it be said if you try to please everyone, no one will like it. As far as I am concerned they shouldn't sacrifice the integrity of the game, or change the rules, just because a bunch of people manage to whine loud enough to be noticed.

I agree that with no high-end content in Factions the elite missions where the best challenge around. I agree with people who wish them to be open for this reason. But Anet does risk ruining the rewards system by doing this.

I agree that perhaps Anet should have realised that the community would scream blue murder over the grind involved to own towns. Personally I'd love a siege system, but for every idea I could contribute to take the current grind away there would be hundreds of players screaming about how "unfair" and how much "grind" is necessary in the new system.

Anet cannot win. No matter what there are going to be people complaining. So perhaps a better solution would be for us all to relax a little and go about what we do best, after all, once the new system is implementd we aren't going to have to perform any sort of grind to get into the elite missions either. But then expect to see posts here in six months time about how much grind the new system takes.